A person living a homosexual lifestyle is constantly living in sin, but if they know Christ (such as the girl in the letter you read) are they set to live a life in hell if they don't turn away from that lifestyle?
- I wouldn't want to presume somebody's eternity because only God knows the heart. That being said, we can often see evidence of changed life and attitudes towards sin as indicators of a relationship with Christ. If we claim to know Christ but walk in darkness, or if we claim we don't sin, the truth isn't in us (1 John 1:6, 8) and the truth here is Jesus and is revealed in and through the Bible. There's also an attitude of understanding involved. Paul himself in Romans 7 spoke about struggling to do the right thing and not being able to pull it off (and I'm quite convinced he knew Christ). That doesn't dismiss anything as ok, but there's a difference between a repentant struggling person who struggles to make the right choice (too often in their own power and not often enough in the strength of the Spirit of God) and the person who has quit fighting and not only gives in, but "approves of those who practice" the same things (Romans 1:32). I know that doesn't answer the question, but it's not mine to answer other than to say sin separates us from God and puts us in danger of His judgement.
When kids do sleepovers, why is it wrong for a boy and girl to spend the night but not 2 girls or 2 guys? But when you get older, marrying a guy is right but the same sex is wrong?
- I'm not sure that when we're talking about kids there's much thought of a couple of 7 or 8 year olds having sex with the opposite sex, much less with the same sex. Some parents are just more comfortable with same sex friends spending the night, but there are others who are ok with both. While not right or wrong, there may be questions of whether or not it's appropriate or beneficial (something Paul talked about, specifically with regards to sexual activity, in 1 Corinthians 6:12 and then generally in 10:23-33). Sleepovers aren't specifically addressed in the Bible. On the other hand, marriage is. God created it, defines it and is part of it so he has a say in what it should and shouldn't look like. When God's design is opposite sex monogamous marriage, anything other than that goes against His design and that's what makes it "wrong."
In the beginning you said, "We are not good." then in Romans 12:9 "Hate what is evil, cling to what is good" God's creation is good - can you clarify?
- All mankind is marred. Ever since Adam and Eve disobeyed God's command which allowed sin to enter the world, mankind has been born with the same sin nature. Marred, messed up and anything but good (just hang around some 2 year olds and you'll see), that's why Christ came to the world - to redeem us, restore us, and make us right again before God. Romans 12:9 is specifically related to how we love, where earlier in the same verse it says "Love must be sincere" meaning without hypocrisy.[we talked about that here] Hate, abhor, stay away from loving evil and cling, cleave, unite yourself with what is good. Really, only God is all good. In dealing with people who are struggling with sin, we must be careful to be sincere in our love - having the same kind of compassion that Jesus regularly had when he saw the hurting, helpless and harassed people (i.e. Matthew 9:36) while not accepting or getting comfortable with the sin in people's lives.
How should we be toward those that are not broken over their sin but are proud of it and continue in it?
- The same way we are (or should be) towards anyone who is in defiant sin, we should have compassion, understanding that sin is a symptom of a greater problem which is a lack of deep fellowship and relationship with God. We should pray - for conviction, for repentance, for brokenness even. And we should offer hope in whatever way we can (whether they recognize it or not) - sometimes that's through unexpected and undeserved kindness, sometimes it's by offering to pray, help, share, encourage, and sometimes it might be by waiting. But generally speaking we still need to maintain the relationship at some level so we can maintain influence and make wholeness, health and life visible.
6 comments:
This is Great stuff. Thanks for not being afraid to talk about difficult issues. After the stress of addressing things like this, and handling it with Truth (which I believe you did) there is a fresh breath of relief released. And a clearing away of Taboo issues that "we just dont talk about at church".
Gone are the days when church folk only hear "a Joel Osteen" type (sorry Joel :o), (nice, kind, non-confrontational) message (These are beneficial, but need to be balanced with difficult truth at times.) You are finding that balance for sure.
Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
I'll attempt to keep this comment on the short side and focus alone on the first question.
Does anyone besides myself see the egregious error from the questioner? Apparently, this person is associating salvation with a lifestyle choice from the way they have framed the question. This should scream off the page this person is not a saved individual and is more than likely a victim of some terribly bad teaching.
At this point, please do not accuse me of judging, I am merely discerning (Hebrews 5:13-14) what the questioner has set forth in the question which speaks to a total lack of what the Gospel that saves our never dying souls has accomplished.
1st John 1:6-8 is spoken to the folks (Israel) who have recieved the Ezekiel 36:26-27 promise of the anointing wherein God causes them to walk in His statues and judgements making it obvious to them who is the true Israel and the false Israel. That ain't us!..We are the Church the body of Christ operating in the dispensation of the Grace of God.
Romans 7, Paul declares the war in our members, in chapter 6 Paul declares the remedy in verse 11,reckon yourself dead indeed unto sin, the dead reckoning....in other words....STOP doing it!..understanding who you are in Christ is a must to get that job done, it requires the installation of right doctrine which comes from the Apostle Paul for us in this present dispensation of the Grace of God. We (the church) will not change someone's attitude toward sin or a destructive lifestyle choice, the change will only be accomplished as a result of the word effectually working in them that believe (1 Thess.2:13)
Romans 1:20-32, Paul is giving a brief history lesson on the gentile world from the creation and before the establishment of Israel. Take note of God turning them over to a reprobate mind, which means they would have no chance of being forgiven. In this dispensation, God's will is ALL would be saved (1 Tim 2:4). Also, look at the audience to whom is spoken of,,they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, haters of God, etc.. these aren't folks you could call being in God's will, so this passage isn't applicable.
To the topic at hand, homosexuallity. It is disgusting, horribly wrong, an abomination, and it is a sin. The same way God looks at all forms of sin. God doesn't grade sin on a curve, and all sin requires a payment. Romans 6;23 speaks to the wages of sin....death. Thanks be unto God for His unspeakable gift!...Jesus paid for all sin, past present and future, even the sin of homosexuallity. Jesus took the death we ALL so rightly deserve, He took our sin to the cross, died for them , was buried, and rose the 3rd day with victory over death, Hell and the grave!!!...When you trust in that ALONE, God counts your faith for righteousness and accepts YOU in the beloved (Eph 1:6) by Grace through Faith!!
You cannot determine if someone is saved according to what you see (lifestyle) but you can determine if someone is saved according to what they are trusting.
I am not in anyway shape or form validating a bad lifestyle choice (and it is a choice) or sinful activity, but I am saying we can discern whether someone is saved or not. You can change someone's lifestyle choice through several approaches, but there is only one way to be saved...and that is where I would start in dealing with the problem, then get the doctrine installed in the person and watch what the effectual working of God's Word gets accomplished. Can I get an AMEN?
Grace and Peace!
2 Corinthians 9:15 Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift.
Just a quick question of clarification for Dean. Where do you get the idea that 1 John was written to Israel because I'm not seeing it anywhere? Seems to me it was written to all believers (1 John 5:13).
Jason,
I know you probably look at me as if I was from another planet or as one that has two heads, a few years ago I would have thought the same of someone that would say 1st John is for Israel and not the church, the body of Christ. But let's look at the evidence.
Obviously, this book is written by John. Let's look to whom John was writing, as set forth in Galatians 2:7-9 which is a recounting of events that took place in the transition book of Acts chapter 15.
Galatians 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
Galatians 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)
Galatians 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
What we see in this passage is amazing. What is more amazing is folks read it and fail to see there is more than one Gospel, the one to the circumcision and the other to the uncircumcision. Also, take note to whom James, Peter and John go to: the circumcision, that would be the little flock of Israel.
If this isn't convincing enough, I believe we can both agree that 1st John is New Testament. Now, who is it that gets the NT? Let's look.
Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jeremiah 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jeremiah 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Here we can see with clarity the recipitent of the NT, it is Israel and the house of Judah. The NT book of Hebrews in chapter 8 repeats the same prophecy stating it's fulfillment. And again, in Jeremiah and Hebrews, Israel is always associated with the law in commandment keeping just as 1st John mentions numerous times the covenant of commandments. Also, take note of verse 11 the statement concerning "they shall not teach every man his neighbor, for they all shall know me" is exactly what is spoken in 1st John 2:27 which is contrary to what Paul exhorts us in the dispensation of the Grace of God whereby we are to 2 Tim 2:15 "study to shew thyself approved unto God"
1st John contains the doctrine for Israel in their tribulation setting for discerning who is "true" Israel and not the "false" Israel which is of the antichrist so they would not be seduced (1st John 2:26).
1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
Are you keeping His commandments? There are 613 points of law which God puts in their inward parts and writes on their minds and according to Ezekiel 36:22-26, God even causes them to walk in His statutes, so determining who is "true" Israel would be according to who it is that keeps the commandments, which are not grievous to the "anointed" members of the little flock of Israel.
1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
Do you know of anyone that can claim that verse?...Only those that God causes to walk in His atatutes can say that...and that will not happen until this dispensation of the Grace of God comes to a close, the church, which is His body is caught up to meet the Lord in the air, at that point, the prophetic program for the nation Israel will resume and the remainder of "Jacob's time of trouble, Daniel's 70th week, the great tribulation, in which the doctrines set forth in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd John will be vital for them, not us.
1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
See it over and over again....the "name" issue...it is about the name of Israel's messiah. John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Our issue is the Gospel of the Grace of God, whereby , Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose the 3rd day..the preaching of the cross..1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
OK, I'll stop here, hope I have in some way helped or at least has caused you to re-examine your Bible understanding..Fell free at any time to email me, go to my blog, or even give me a call, I am willing and open to any dialogue in my endeavor to Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Grace and Peace!
Dean,
Thanks for the response. I disagree with your conclusions but understand a little better.
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